纽约厨神：要活下去，餐饮业就必须变革
2004年，张锡稿（David Chang）在纽约市开了一家革命性的福桃拉面馆（Momofuku Noodle Bar）。后来，他不仅打造了一个餐饮帝国，还参加了奈飞（Netflix）的节目《美食不美》（Ugly Delicious），推出了一档播客节目，并且刚刚出版了一本回忆录《吃桃》（Eat a Peach）。如今他已经成为整个餐饮业的代言人。张锡稿在与加比•乌拉合著的新书中以诚实、率直的态度，回顾了自己的成功历程，剖析了自己的双极性障碍和抑郁症。他之所以能够在美食文化领域成为举足轻重的人物，正是得益于这种率真的性格。
如今，他所传达的消息不容乐观：餐厅是社会和经济正常运行的“润滑油”不可或缺的一部分，但在新冠疫情期间，餐厅正面临着生存危机。福桃也被迫关闭了两家餐厅。目前，这位大厨主要致力于为整个行业向民选的官员们发出呼吁，推动政府提供援助，并努力团结所有业内同行。他正在努力解答的一个重要问题是：“我们如何解决整个餐饮行业所面临的问题，让它不再如此脆弱？”他问道：“我们如何保证不会重蹈覆辙？”
以下是《财富》杂志与张锡稿的对话内容节选。内容经过编辑。
《财富》：首先我们来聊一聊餐饮行业的现状。您在4月曾经表示，那几周是您人生中最艰难的一段时间。现在情况有所好转还是变得更加糟糕？
张锡稿：我不确定情况是否有所好转。我们只是适应了当前的市场环境。我们对前方的障碍多了一些了解。唯一能够改变现状的只有疫苗或者有效的治疗方法，以及政府的适当援助。似乎其他所有英语国家都在向小企业和餐饮行业提供援助。但美国政府似乎无法组织有效的援助。
您的策略是什么？
首先是尝试采取务实的做法：在这种不幸的情况下，怎么做对我们最有效，可以帮助我们为经济重启做好准备。我们整个团队在这方面花了大量时间。你必须全面改革以前做过的一切。我们在大部分情况下只是在等待，等着答案出现，做我们能够做的事情。
餐饮行业就像是一辆汽车，总是需要新的引擎、减震器、刹车片和消音器。我们永远也修不好它，因为它总是在行驶过程中。现在，它停了下来，所以我们可以拿出时间来把它修好。
您刚刚谈到新冠疫情暴露了餐饮行业的一些缺点。缺点有哪些？能否解决这些问题？
我认为小企业不应该承担医疗保健的成本，这一点变得日益明显。医疗应该是面向所有人提供的资源。而且事实证明，我们需要全民基本收入。
在疫情爆发之前，全民基本收入很难实现。即使你是一位久经考验的经营者，你也很难获得贷款，因为在金融行业，任何人都知道餐厅的财务基础并不稳定。疫情暴露了餐厅的成本结构，而我们需要评估食物的价格。我认为实际成本将全面上涨30%或40%。我不知道人们会如何支付增加的成本。
当然如果你有扩大经营规模的资本和现金流，并且有途径进入公开市场，你就没有提高价格的动机。由于这种变化，你会看到整个行业会迎来巨变。
这会给整个国家带来问题，因为餐厅就像是银行。只是我们不会把钱抓在手里，靠它来收取利息。我们引入资金后，会很快把它们花掉，比如支付给花店、烘焙师、食材供应商、农场主、员工等。在美国的文化中，我们就像是“润滑油”。我们通过回馈社会，让整个社会始终保持正常运行。
到2035年，福桃会变成一家怎样的公司？
我们从未想到会发生新冠疫情，但我们总是在为可能发生的糟糕的事情做准备。我们会研究大趋势，所以早在送餐服务流行之前我们就已经开始提供这项服务。我们知道我们必须开展多种经营，为困难时期做好准备，于是我们竭尽全力。我们最初是一家设备公司。我们进军传媒业。我们有一间实验室，主要制作各种发酵制品，如辣椒酱、盐、酱油到各种味噌等。我们之前曾经与卡夫亨氏（Kraft Heinz）合作开发产品，并推广我们的Ssam Sauce调味酱。
两年前，我们提出了一个远大的目标，计划在五年内改变公司的收入结构，保证50%的收入来自消费品而不是餐厅。现在，在疫情的影响下，我们把实现这个目标的时间缩短到了6个月。我们为此调动了所有资源，同时继续努力为餐厅的未来发展创造机会。
您的公司包含了餐厅和包装消费品这两部分业务，作为一位大厨，您对此有何感受？
我想许多厨师会说：“这不是我该做的。”我没有那样的福气。我必须做出最合适的选择。
我们进行了大规模重组。我们会努力避免再关闭任何餐厅。但我们的目标可能是后退几步，夯实基础，着眼于未来打造一家更出色的公司，召回所有老员工，去做更多事情。现实情况是，我们必须竭尽全力生存下去。如果我们不做出改变，未来将没有任何希望可言。
您的书有一部分是在描写失败的经历。我很好奇餐饮行业到底有哪些因素吸引了像您这样一位好胜的人。在当前这个关乎生死存亡的时刻，您是否需要这种心态？
现在，烹饪在人们眼中是一项很酷的职业。但不久之前，如果你跟别人说你想成为一名厨师，人们会说：“你到底在干什么？”我去烹饪学校的时候，人们对我说：“恭喜你，从现在开始，人们会问你在监狱里待过吗？你是退役军人吗？或者你刚离开康复中心吗？”现在，有常春藤名校毕业的年轻人也加入了烹饪行业。这是最让人觉得不可思议的事情。
我今年已经43岁半。至少按照保守派的观念，一个人之所以做厨师是因为他做不了其他事情。至少就我了解，许多人从事烹饪的理由，并不适合当前的现状。我认为，正是因为始终无法融入主流才让我斗志昂扬。
餐厅为我提供了我所需要的这种奇怪的结构。我从小到大总是被别人吼，从我的父亲、我的家人到高中时代。显然，在厨房里也是如此。我根本无法融入到任何其他场合。厨房给我的感觉是，哇，这种环境让我感到非常熟悉。至少对我而言，我之所以热爱烹饪，是因为它让我无法自拔。我沉迷于厨房带给我的快感，许多人都有这样的感受。
您在书中描写了自己成为领导者的过程。在一次董事会议上，您曾经被人形容是他们见过的最差劲的商人，而且您的高管教练曾经表示，许多人根本无法忍受您，但他们这么长时间以来竟然一直支持您，这让人觉得难以置信。
商人或者投资人对厨师说的最糟糕的话是，你是一位艺术家。这句话有一部分是正确的。我们确实是艺术家。但这句话中存有一种奇怪的偏见，人们认为厨师不会做其他任何事情。我认为这是一个自我塑造的过程。
我在做商业决策的时候，以及作为一名公司领导人，都犯过许多错误。这对我来说并不容易。我一直在反思自身存在的许多问题。我无法合理地解释为什么我总是发火，或者为什么总是脾气很差。
这也是我放弃很多福桃的控制权的一个原因。我不再参与决策。我的大部分工作是弄清楚哪些情况会让我爆发。如果你自己有成瘾的问题，就不应该把别人放到可能让他们受到诱惑的情景当中。我一直在努力，但并不容易。
您在书中坦诚地谈论了自己的抑郁症和愤怒，以及它们与您的成功的联系。如果您的职业发展得益于这些问题，您又如何看待自己的创造力？您如何开启未来职业发展的新篇章？
无论我以前的成功得益于哪些因素，现在我可以回过头来问自己，它真的有用吗？我愿意接受新事物吗？它们最终是否给我带来了更多快乐？是否给我和我身边的人带来了正能量？
或许登顶并不是目标。或许我也可以走到中途，然后再返回山脚。就我而言，所谓成功的标准一直在变化，我也在考虑这对于我的未来意味着什么。这是我的真心话。我真的不知道。（财富中文网）
翻译：刘进龙
审校：汪皓
2004年，张锡稿（David Chang）在纽约市开了一家革命性的福桃拉面馆（Momofuku Noodle Bar）。后来，他不仅打造了一个餐饮帝国，还参加了奈飞（Netflix）的节目《美食不美》（Ugly Delicious），推出了一档播客节目，并且刚刚出版了一本回忆录《吃桃》（Eat a Peach）。如今他已经成为整个餐饮业的代言人。张锡稿在与加比•乌拉合著的新书中以诚实、率直的态度，回顾了自己的成功历程，剖析了自己的双极性障碍和抑郁症。他之所以能够在美食文化领域成为举足轻重的人物，正是得益于这种率真的性格。
如今，他所传达的消息不容乐观：餐厅是社会和经济正常运行的“润滑油”不可或缺的一部分，但在新冠疫情期间，餐厅正面临着生存危机。福桃也被迫关闭了两家餐厅。目前，这位大厨主要致力于为整个行业向民选的官员们发出呼吁，推动政府提供援助，并努力团结所有业内同行。他正在努力解答的一个重要问题是：“我们如何解决整个餐饮行业所面临的问题，让它不再如此脆弱？”他问道：“我们如何保证不会重蹈覆辙？”
以下是《财富》杂志与张锡稿的对话内容节选。内容经过编辑。
《财富》：首先我们来聊一聊餐饮行业的现状。您在4月曾经表示，那几周是您人生中最艰难的一段时间。现在情况有所好转还是变得更加糟糕？
张锡稿：我不确定情况是否有所好转。我们只是适应了当前的市场环境。我们对前方的障碍多了一些了解。唯一能够改变现状的只有疫苗或者有效的治疗方法，以及政府的适当援助。似乎其他所有英语国家都在向小企业和餐饮行业提供援助。但美国政府似乎无法组织有效的援助。
您的策略是什么？
首先是尝试采取务实的做法：在这种不幸的情况下，怎么做对我们最有效，可以帮助我们为经济重启做好准备。我们整个团队在这方面花了大量时间。你必须全面改革以前做过的一切。我们在大部分情况下只是在等待，等着答案出现，做我们能够做的事情。
餐饮行业就像是一辆汽车，总是需要新的引擎、减震器、刹车片和消音器。我们永远也修不好它，因为它总是在行驶过程中。现在，它停了下来，所以我们可以拿出时间来把它修好。
您刚刚谈到新冠疫情暴露了餐饮行业的一些缺点。缺点有哪些？能否解决这些问题？
我认为小企业不应该承担医疗保健的成本，这一点变得日益明显。医疗应该是面向所有人提供的资源。而且事实证明，我们需要全民基本收入。
在疫情爆发之前，全民基本收入很难实现。即使你是一位久经考验的经营者，你也很难获得贷款，因为在金融行业，任何人都知道餐厅的财务基础并不稳定。疫情暴露了餐厅的成本结构，而我们需要评估食物的价格。我认为实际成本将全面上涨30%或40%。我不知道人们会如何支付增加的成本。
当然如果你有扩大经营规模的资本和现金流，并且有途径进入公开市场，你就没有提高价格的动机。由于这种变化，你会看到整个行业会迎来巨变。
这会给整个国家带来问题，因为餐厅就像是银行。只是我们不会把钱抓在手里，靠它来收取利息。我们引入资金后，会很快把它们花掉，比如支付给花店、烘焙师、食材供应商、农场主、员工等。在美国的文化中，我们就像是“润滑油”。我们通过回馈社会，让整个社会始终保持正常运行。
到2035年，福桃会变成一家怎样的公司？
我们从未想到会发生新冠疫情，但我们总是在为可能发生的糟糕的事情做准备。我们会研究大趋势，所以早在送餐服务流行之前我们就已经开始提供这项服务。我们知道我们必须开展多种经营，为困难时期做好准备，于是我们竭尽全力。我们最初是一家设备公司。我们进军传媒业。我们有一间实验室，主要制作各种发酵制品，如辣椒酱、盐、酱油到各种味噌等。我们之前曾经与卡夫亨氏（Kraft Heinz）合作开发产品，并推广我们的Ssam Sauce调味酱。
两年前，我们提出了一个远大的目标，计划在五年内改变公司的收入结构，保证50%的收入来自消费品而不是餐厅。现在，在疫情的影响下，我们把实现这个目标的时间缩短到了6个月。我们为此调动了所有资源，同时继续努力为餐厅的未来发展创造机会。
您的公司包含了餐厅和包装消费品这两部分业务，作为一位大厨，您对此有何感受？
我想许多厨师会说：“这不是我该做的。”我没有那样的福气。我必须做出最合适的选择。
我们进行了大规模重组。我们会努力避免再关闭任何餐厅。但我们的目标可能是后退几步，夯实基础，着眼于未来打造一家更出色的公司，召回所有老员工，去做更多事情。现实情况是，我们必须竭尽全力生存下去。如果我们不做出改变，未来将没有任何希望可言。
您的书有一部分是在描写失败的经历。我很好奇餐饮行业到底有哪些因素吸引了像您这样一位好胜的人。在当前这个关乎生死存亡的时刻，您是否需要这种心态？
现在，烹饪在人们眼中是一项很酷的职业。但不久之前，如果你跟别人说你想成为一名厨师，人们会说：“你到底在干什么？”我去烹饪学校的时候，人们对我说：“恭喜你，从现在开始，人们会问你在监狱里待过吗？你是退役军人吗？或者你刚离开康复中心吗？”现在，有常春藤名校毕业的年轻人也加入了烹饪行业。这是最让人觉得不可思议的事情。
我今年已经43岁半。至少按照保守派的观念，一个人之所以做厨师是因为他做不了其他事情。至少就我了解，许多人从事烹饪的理由，并不适合当前的现状。我认为，正是因为始终无法融入主流才让我斗志昂扬。
餐厅为我提供了我所需要的这种奇怪的结构。我从小到大总是被别人吼，从我的父亲、我的家人到高中时代。显然，在厨房里也是如此。我根本无法融入到任何其他场合。厨房给我的感觉是，哇，这种环境让我感到非常熟悉。至少对我而言，我之所以热爱烹饪，是因为它让我无法自拔。我沉迷于厨房带给我的快感，许多人都有这样的感受。
您在书中描写了自己成为领导者的过程。在一次董事会议上，您曾经被人形容是他们见过的最差劲的商人，而且您的高管教练曾经表示，许多人根本无法忍受您，但他们这么长时间以来竟然一直支持您，这让人觉得难以置信。
商人或者投资人对厨师说的最糟糕的话是，你是一位艺术家。这句话有一部分是正确的。我们确实是艺术家。但这句话中存有一种奇怪的偏见，人们认为厨师不会做其他任何事情。我认为这是一个自我塑造的过程。
我在做商业决策的时候，以及作为一名公司领导人，都犯过许多错误。这对我来说并不容易。我一直在反思自身存在的许多问题。我无法合理地解释为什么我总是发火，或者为什么总是脾气很差。
这也是我放弃很多福桃的控制权的一个原因。我不再参与决策。我的大部分工作是弄清楚哪些情况会让我爆发。如果你自己有成瘾的问题，就不应该把别人放到可能让他们受到诱惑的情景当中。我一直在努力，但并不容易。
您在书中坦诚地谈论了自己的抑郁症和愤怒，以及它们与您的成功的联系。如果您的职业发展得益于这些问题，您又如何看待自己的创造力？您如何开启未来职业发展的新篇章？
无论我以前的成功得益于哪些因素，现在我可以回过头来问自己，它真的有用吗？我愿意接受新事物吗？它们最终是否给我带来了更多快乐？是否给我和我身边的人带来了正能量？
或许登顶并不是目标。或许我也可以走到中途，然后再返回山脚。就我而言，所谓成功的标准一直在变化，我也在考虑这对于我的未来意味着什么。这是我的真心话。我真的不知道。（财富中文网）
翻译：刘进龙
审校：汪皓
Since opening up his revolutionary Momofuku Noodle Bar in New York City 2004, Chang has not only built a restaurant empire but also become a spokesperson for the industry as a whole with Netflix show Ugly Delicious, a podcast, and now his just-released memoir, Eat a Peach. In his new book, written with Gabe Ulla, Chang scrutinizes his own success, bipolar disorder, and depression with the same honesty and bluntness that has made him such a critical figure in food culture.
These days, his message is a dire one: Restaurants are an essential part of the "oil" that keeps society and the economy running smoothly—and they are struggling to survive amid the COVID-19 pandemic. Even Momofuku has had to close two of its locations. The chef is focused on advocating for the industry with elected officials, pushing for government assistance, and trying to create solidarity within the sector. The big question he's trying to answer: "How do we fix this industry so it isn’t so fragile?," he asks. "How do we make sure we don’t repeat these mistakes?"
The following are edited excerpts of Fortune’s conversation with Chang.
Fortune: Let’s start by taking the temperature of the industry right now. In April, you said that it had been the hardest couple of weeks of your life. Have things gotten better or worse?
David Chang: I don't know if things have gotten better. We've just adapted to it. We understand the obstacles ahead of us a little bit better. The only thing that can really change the situation is a vaccine or some kind of effective therapeutic and proper government assistance that it seems every other English-speaking nation has been doing for their small business and restaurant industry. But our American government cannot seem to get its act together.
What’s been your strategy?
The first thing was trying to take a pragmatic approach: What is going to be most useful for us in a distressful situation and preparing for a scenario if and when we were to reopen. We spent I don't know how many thousands of hours, our entire team, on it. You have to overhaul everything you've done. For the most part, we were just waiting—waiting for answers and doing what we could.
The restaurant industry has been a metaphorical car that's always needed a new engine and shocks and breaks and a muffler. We could never fix it because it was always on the move. Now it's stopped, and let's take the time to do this right.
You just touched on how COVID has brought to light some of the industry’s vulnerabilities. What are they? Can they be fixed?
It's becoming increasingly clear that I don't think small businesses should have to pay for healthcare. That should be something that is universally provided. And it's proved that we need some kind of universal basic income.
It was hard to make it work before the pandemic. Even if you were a proven operator, it was hard to get a loan because everyone in the financial industry knew the shaky financial ground that restaurants were built upon. It's exposing the cost structure, and we need to evaluate how much you can charge for food. I think the real cost is probably a 30%, 40% increase across the board. I don't know how anyone will pay for that.
The discrepancy is if you have the capital and the cash flow to have scale and you have access to public markets, you have no incentive to raise the prices. Because of that dynamic, you're going to see just dramatic change in the industry.
This is problematic for the country at large because restaurants are like banks. We just don't hold onto the money and collect interest. We bring it in, and we immediately send it out to a variety of things, from florists to bakers to purveyors to farmers to employees. We're like the oil in this culture. We just constantly lubricate it by giving it away.
What does Momofuku look like as a company in 2035?
We never knew a pandemic like this was going to happen, but we always try to prepare for what might be terrible. We look at the trends, and it's a reason we started a delivery service before it was cool. We've done everything knowing that we had to diversify for bad times. We started an equipment company. We were in media. We have a lab where we have focused on making mostly fermented products ranging from hot sauces to salts to soy sauce and versions of miso. We've dabbled in products before with Kraft Heinz and our Ssam Sauce.
Two years ago, we put out a lofty goal of changing our revenue in five years so 50% would not come from the four walls of a restaurant but from consumer product goods. With the pandemic, now we've tried to accelerate that into six months. We're just shifting all of our resources to that and still trying to create a future of growth for the restaurants.
As a chef, how do you feel about being part restaurant company, part consumer packaged goods company?
I think a lot of chefs are saying, 'Well, I didn't sign up for this.' I don't have that luxury. I’ve got to do what's best.
We took a big reorg. We're going to try not to close any more restaurants. But the goal is maybe this is several steps backwards to shore up that foundation so we can create a better company moving forward, hire everyone back, do more things. The reality is we’ve got to do whatever we can to survive. If we don't change, we don't have any hope for a future.
Your book is in part dedicated to the underdogs. I’m curious what it is about the restaurant industry that attracts this type of scrappy person. Is that the mentality that you need in this moment to survive?
Now cooking is seen as cool, but not too long ago, if you told people you want to be a cook, people were like, 'What the hell are you doing?' When I went to cooking school, people said, 'Congratulations, now you’re going to get asked did you get out of prison? Did you get out of the military? Or rehab?' Now you see Ivy League kids cooking. It’s just the craziest thing.
The mindset with at least the older guard—and I'm in the middle at the age of 43—was that you were in this profession because you couldn't do anything else. Many of the people that seemed to have been drawn to it, at least in my world, for whatever reason couldn't fit into the status quo. I tend to think that scrappiness comes from never fitting in.
Restaurants provide this weird structure that I needed. I have been yelled at basically my entire life, from my father, my family, to high school. And then obviously in kitchens. I just couldn't fit in anywhere else. And I get to kitchens and wow, I'm like, there's something familiar about this environment. At least for me, what I loved about cooking was that it's an addiction. I’m an addict to that kitchen high that so many of us get.
In your book you write about your evolution as a leader. You’ve been told in a board meeting that you are the worst businessperson they’ve ever met, and your executive coach said that it was incredible so many people have stayed by your side for so long when they can’t stand you.
The worst thing a chef can be told by a businessperson or investor is that you're an artist. Part of that is true. We are. But part of that is also this weird bias that if you are a chef, you don't know how to do anything else. I think it’s a self-perpetuating thing.
I've made a lot of mistakes both on making business decisions and being a business leader. And that's hard. I've been working on a lot of my own issues. I can't rationalize as much as I want to why I was a yeller or continue to have a bad temper.
It's one of the reasons why I've given up a lot of control at Momofuku. I don't make decisions. A lot of that is understanding what triggers me. If you have an addiction problem, you shouldn't put someone in a situation where they might be tempted. I'm working on it, and it's not been easy.
You write very openly about your depression and your anger, and how they’re tied in some ways to your success. How do you think about your creativity when it’s these issues that fueled your career? What fuels the next chapter?
Well, whatever was working for me before, I can now look and ask, did it even work? Was I open to new things? Did any of that ultimately lead to more happiness, to a net positive for myself and the people around me in the world at large?
Maybe getting to the top of the mountain isn’t the goal. Maybe it’s going halfway and come back down. This whole idea of success for me is something that is constantly shifting and changing, and I think about what that means for me going forward. This is the truth, I really don't know.
